Post by LS on Jul 2, 2006 18:38:01 GMT -5
Billy Don Burns: An Outlaw And A Gentleman
[/center]I recently had the great pleasure of talking with one of my favorite people, singer and songwriter, Billy Don Burns. He was just heading out on a month long tour in support of his latest critically acclaimed release, Heroes, Friends & Other Troubled Souls, that included a major stop in NYC for a guest appearance on WOR’s top rated Joey Reynolds Show, an appearance as a guest DJ on Sirius’ red hot Outlaw Country channel, and a performance at the Crash Mansion in Manhattan. Despite catching him at a hectic moment, he graciously took time out to talk about his latest release and career, as well as his views on the state of country music.
TCB: Congratulations on the new album, Heroes, Friends & Other Troubled Souls. The reviews have been great and it’s been really well received.
BDB: Well I tell you, we’ve had some real nice things said about us. Of course I’ve always had label problems all my life, they’re still trying to get them in the stores, I don’t know if they will or not. You know, all I can do is make the records and give them to them, and hopefully something will happen with them, but you know, that’s always been a problem, it’s hard.
TCB: Yeah, that’s the hard part. With the music industry being what it is, what direction do you think non-mainstream music’s going to take to get their music out to the people?
BDB: You know, I tell you what’s strange, because I’ve never been anything but old ‘Hank Williams’ country basically, but I’ve had 2 calls from rock & roll stations who’ve been playing “Dark Side Of The Spoon.” And I’ve gotten some press I’ve never gotten before, from Vintage Guitar…and Rolling Stone Germany did a nice thing on it. So I don’t know, my life certainly hasn’t changed, I doubt it will, but it makes you feel good. I certainly couldn’t imagine a rock & roll station playing me.
TCB: Well, guys like Waylon and Willie, Johnny Cash, they always appealed to the rock crowd as well as country fans. There was something about them and their music that transcended music ‘boundaries.’ They delivered it with a kind of rock & roll attitude, but their music was honest, and I don’t think people give the rock audience credit. They might like their music a little louder, but they still look for that honesty to relate to.
BDB: That’s amazing isn’t it? I never shoot for anything when I go in to record, just do it the best I can. I had one guy tell me that “Dark Side Of The Spoon” could ruin my career. Of course the first thing I said was ‘What career are you talking about?’ [laughter]. But there’s really a positive message there…I almost wish I hadn’t done “Full Blown Addict.” I wrote that one on the way to the session to do “Dark Side Of The Spoon.” I only did it to make band the laugh, and they did, but I don’t know if that’s the message I want to put out there. But “Dark Side Of The Spoon,” it says ‘it’s the wrong way’ you know, because I certainly don’t want to lead anyone down the wrong path, that’s the path I’ve been through for damn sure. I’d say ‘go back, don’t come this way’ and I think I got that in “Dark Side Of The Spoon.” Hopefully “Full Blown Addict” won’t lead anybody astray.
TCB: I don’t think so. It’s a part of life, a part of life people don’t like to acknowledge or look at, but it’s there. It was a part of your life and you’re not afraid to face it. Aren’t you just drawing on personal experience to tell, warn people what that kind of a life that’s like, that you made a mistake and that way of life is a big mistake?
BDB: You know, I didn’t think I’d ever go that far, I really didn’t. Nobody really has any passion for an addict, and I can understand that. I’ve been there and it’s a horrible life. Something all addicts have in common is, they all spend a lot of time in toilets and puking and it’s nothing but misery. I’ll always remember when I crossed the line, I was in a little town in Norway, and you get there and it’s the loneliness of it all. I worked with a Swedish band and then kind of got used to them, and then there was a band from Bulgaria, and nobody spoke English. And this girl was trying to get me what I wanted and she came back with heroin, and I didn’t have any reason not to at the time. People who go over the line usually don’t want to be there, but you can’t undo it, you gotta to go on and I’ve fought it on and off. I thank God I’m doing ok today…
TCB: That’s the side of things most fans don’t see, it’s not all fame and glory, there’s a lot of loneliness, especially when you’re out on the road touring. Wouldn’t you say you’re showing the flip side of the coin with songs like this, the side the public never sees, that there is a lot of loneliness, empty time?
BDB: A lot of people, when they get in the business don’t understand this. Unless you get lucky and have all your people around you…but if you come up the hard way, you’re gonna be doing a lot of gigs with bands you don’t know and by yourself, and it’ll gnaw at you. If you’re a parent, you’ll always feel like you’re a bad father. I always justified that by sending home money. My kids might’ve had too much, I don’t know, I tried to give them what I didn’t have. But all that gets to gnawing on you out there, and I guess that’s how it happened, I don’t know. But I’d never turn nobody on to anything like that and anybody I talk to about it, I tell them ‘you don’t want to go there, it’s not what you think it is.’
TCB: How did Willie come on board for “Patsy”?
BDB: Well you know, “Patsy” was on the Desperate Men album I did with Hank (Cochran). We’d cut “Patsy” the way it’s on my album, that one was for the Desperate Men album. Then I’d gone to California and when I got back, Hank said ‘I want to play you something.’ So I went over and he played me a version that he and Owen Bradley had gone in and done. Anyway, when the album was finished, Hank decided on the version he and Owen did, so that one was put on it instead of the version with Willie.
I always thought that version with Willie was just great too, so when I was putting this album together, I decided to put it on…
TCB: Well, I like both versions too, but I think the version with Willie adds more depth and meaning to the song. Hank of course had a history with Patsy, but so did Willie. I mean “Crazy” was her biggest song…
BDB: Yeah, that’s my feeling too. That and the fact that I got to sing with two of my heroes. It was a miracle that I’m on there with Willie and Hank. I feel unworthy to be on there with those two guys, I mean these guys are what we’ve been talking about, how we got here, you know?
TCB: Which side of it do you like better, writing songs or performing?
BDB: I love to perform…I don’t write as much as I used to. At the time I moved to Arkansas, I wrote all the time and it was killing me because I’d go a little too deep sometimes. When I came here, I prayed to God and said ‘please don’t let me write another song,’ and I didn’t for 2 or 3 years, and now I don’t write that much really. I think I take it too seriously sometimes because the songs just about kill me, and I moved to Arkansas I think, just in time. And that’s too serious. But it goes together for me, I know that if I want to play I’ve gotta have songs. And both can hurt you, you’ve gotta be strong to do either one.
TCB: You’ve collaborated on some of your songs. How does that process work for you?
BDB: Well, I do it a little differently than most people. It’s like if I’m all right with somebody, and my friends, they all know it, I’ve gotta lead the show and they jump on board and fill in what they can. But I can’t…I did it a time or two with Hank (Cochran) or Mack (Vickery), I suppose Mack was my best co-writer…Hank was good too because he’d throw in and let you go all the way and what we call scroll (write down the words) for you. But I’m not really a good co-writer. I remember when we got Jerry Lassiter in with Hank, and me and Jerry and Mack and Hank were going to write. I couldn’t get into it and I just said ‘you guys go ahead.’ I finally had to jump up and take off with my guitar, and I went and wrote “Sailing Down The Nile.” But if it isn’t my idea…I have to ramrod when I do write with somebody, so I’m not really a good co-writer. I just can’t get into their minds usually, which is crazy. I don’t think it should be that serious of a thing.
TCB: You’d told me a story once about the daughter of a lady friend of yours, who’d asked you to write a song for her, and you’d told her, ‘honey, it just doesn’t happen that way.’ Yet eventually you did write her that song, “Sarai Green And Ruby Red.” So when you do write, how do the songs come to you?
BDB: When she’d first asked me, I was serious when I told her it just doesn’t happen that way. But later on, Sarai wanted a horse and my friend Karen Brooks, who’s into horses, bought Ruby Red and brought her over here. When we saddled her up and Sarai got on her, I thought ‘Sarai Green And Ruby Red’ and then the song just started coming to me. But I’d never planned it when she asked me to write her one, but when I saw her on that horse, I said ‘there’s a song there.’
TCB: So they just ‘happen’?
BDB: Yeah, mostly...
TCB: Out of all the songs you’ve written, which ones do you feel represent you the best and hold the deepest meaning for you?
BDB: I’m close to most of them. If I go in to do 6 or 7 songs, I notice I usually draw from some of the same ones unless I get requests for other ones. But “Outskirts Of Desperate” is one that means a lot to me, “I Was There,” those are two of the top ones. Now like “Memories Cost A Lot,” I can’t listen to it, and every now and then I get a request for it, and I just can’t do it- that one just breaks my heart.
TCB: Some of your music is very up-tempo and ‘plugged in’ with electric guitar, etc. But on a lot of it, you do tend to go more towards the acoustic- a lot of fiddle, mandolin…
BDB: I think that’s because growing up in these hills, everybody played a fiddle or a dobro or dulcimer…and I think it’s just my roots to tell the truth. I’ve played with some good jamming bands, but after the day is through, it’s like I know where I’m from, and to me there’s nothing sweeter than hearing rhythm guitars and a dobro or fiddle, mandolin…I guess because I’ve heard it all my life.
TCB: Those are my personal favorites.
BDB: Well I thank you. And I think so too. You get lost, you get a good guitar player who’ll lean you the other way, but I think that’s where my best has gotta be, in the acoustic stuff. I should stay there more instead of venturing out. Now Hal Bynum, he does a lot of recitation things, I went by his house the other day. I was going into the studio to lay down a couple of things. He played me a song he’d written a few years ago, “A Little Bit Of Jesus Goes A Long, Long Way,” and I decided to do that one. Man, did it come off good; we did it with a dobro and mandolin…
TCB: Have you ever considered doing a full Gospel album?
BDB: You know I think I’m going to have to because, me and Mack, we wrote a lot of gospel. The first song we wrote was a gospel tune and the last one we wrote was a gospel tune, and I have enough for an album. Of course I have “A Little Bit Of Jesus” too. I really should try to get one in before it’s all over, to try to amend for some of the bad stuff I’ve done. To try to show people the light instead of the wrong path.
TCB: Kind of like Paycheck, Merle, Cash- they all made mistakes, wrong choices…
BDB: Yeah, that Johnny Paycheck, he impacted the world didn’t he? And Hank and Lefty and a bunch of others…And you know, John Fogerty is great. Sometimes I feel that a lot of guys like that don’t get the credit they deserve. I’ve seen him struggling to get up the Americana chart with me and I thought, you know this guy’s really done a lot. To me, he’s up there with the greats. I’ve never seen him play, I hope to someday, but I tell you, he deserves a seat at the table with the rest of them as far as I’m concerned.
TCB: You’re producing yourself now. A lot of artists find that a difficult thing to do. Is it?
BDB: The stuff that was cut on me in the past, I just cringe. It didn’t come off. If I hadn’t started producing myself, you and I probably wouldn’t be having this discussion because at least I got close enough to where I enjoy listening to it, so it’s something that works for me.
TCB: After all these years, you didn’t hit the ‘big time’ in the mainstream. So what’s kept you going and what still keeps you going?
BDB: Of course now there’s no turning back when you get to be my age, I’m 55 years old. But I don’t know, it’s like I never had a choice. It’s like there was something leading me. I’ve thought about it a few times, but I’ve just yielded to it and go with the flow, and I’m sure I’ll do it till the day I die. It’s not been a bad life. Sure, if I had it all to do over I’d make a few changes, but as far as the music, I don’t regret pursuing it. It’s been the best part too, you know like getting to know most of my heroes, work with them, I’ve been acknowledged by most of them. And if I never had anything more than the Johnny Cash letter or the night Willie told me I was a great writer, that would be enough and I would not trade that for the big platinum album and the money that goes with it…I would not trade my Johnny Cash letter for that or Willie telling me that, as insane as that may sound, but I wouldn’t. And you know, if that’s all there is, I accept it and it’s great.
And then people like you guys, that helps me go on too you know. You guys are always writing something good. But I don’t get one bad thing written about me out of 200 probably. You get one bad letter every now and then, but 99% of them are good and that makes you feel like you’re doing something.
TCB: Being you don’t have mainstream exposure, how does that affect touring?
BDB: Well I’ve been lucky…and I’ve had some good years and made some good decisions. I bought these 40 acres here in Arkansas with a check I got on a Willie Nelson song, and I’m not in debt or anything. I love money, but it’s not at the top of my list and I do music the best I can do it.
TCB: But what challenges and difficulties does it pose from the aspect of not being a well-known name like those in the mainstream, who have label money and publicity behind them? I’m sure it’s harder to get people to come out to shows. And you’ll have good nights and then there are those ‘bad’ nights when maybe on a half dozen people will show up. Does that get discouraging at all?
BDB: Yeah, I just went through that, played Atlanta, Georgia. I didn’t see anywhere where it was advertised, and we probably had that many people…10 or 12, and when you get a room that holds 150 people, yeah that gets pretty discouraging, and I think we would’ve had a few more…you wonder why they even book you there. But if I’ve got the 10 or 12 people like we had, and I sold about 3 albums, which is nothing…but I take every one of them serious. The people that bought my album, I feel like anytime anyone buys one of my albums, that I owe them something and it makes it worth it. I wish we would’ve had a packed house, but when I left there I felt good because there’s people who sincerely think my music’s great and that’ll get me to the next gig.
TCB: Over the past several years, the number of venues that offer live music has dwindled. I’d imagine this has compounded the problem and made things a little more difficult?
BDB: Well yeah, you know back in the 80s, I guess I was doing more mainstream and I was playing the big honky tonks all over the country. But now I only do my songs, every now and then I’ll do somebody else’s, but it makes you feel good to do a gig and know you can do a gig on your own songs- ones that have not been hits, you know? Of course it narrows your venues down, but I love doing my own stuff and it’s worked for me. Those kinds of things are rewarding over the money and the platinum records. Just being able to do a gig and doing just your stuff tells me that I have something.
TCB: You’ve played Europe a lot. What do you find the differences between Europe and the States are?
BDB: I tell you, European radio’s a lot more receptive to you, and in talking with the fans it’s like they seem to respect you if you’ve got a few years on you. Being a writer’s important to them I think, because they all talk about that. They seem to like that you’ve got a few years on you.
TCB: They don’t have an ‘ageism’ problem…
BDB: Yeah, they don’t seem like they’re looking for a baby in a hat or a…
TCB: Gorgeous face?
BDB: Yeah right, like you’re out there selling sex…Actually just being yourself works great over there. There are a lot of good people over here too, but radio’s definitely more receptive over there.
TCB: Country music’s legends are passing on…Waylon, Paycheck, Cash…Once they’re all gone, where do you see country music future heading?
BDB: Well hopefully, the seed that these guys that you mentioned, will be nourished by somebody out there and will bear fruit down the road. I think it’s too strong, such a powerful force that it can never be extinguished. Sometimes you think that corporate radio and record companies…I understand the bottom lines and you’ve gotta make a buck. It’s that way for me too when you get right down to it, but I think that Johnny Cash and some of those guys planted a seed, and I don’t think anyone can stop it. It may not be playing on the big radio stations, but they’ll be someone out there like me taking it out there.
TCB: Do you think the smaller independents will someday overtake the major labels?
BDB: I don’t know that we’ll overtake it, but I don’t think they’re going to extinguish us. I know what Hank Williams and Johnny Cash did to me and there’s no taking that away from me, and hopefully I’m passing it on. I mean I meet young guys out there, especially in Nashville. I’m constantly running into guys who say, ‘Hey, you’re Billy Don Burns aren’t you?’ and I say ‘yeah’ and they go into a big spiel where they saw me at some club, and I can see in them the fire that got me in the business. So I think there’s always going to be someone to carry it on. I guess it’s a lot easier to sell the sex, youth…and so that always may be the ‘big’ music, but the real music comes from…You know like King Solomon said, the fastest men don’t always win the race, but the wisest men rule, and that’s something I’ve held onto all through my career. Not that I’m the fastest or the best, it just the philosophy I’ve clung onto.
TCB: “I Was There” is one of my favorite songs off the new album. It’s obviously autobiographical?
BDB: Yeah.
TCB: Do you think we’ll ever see Nashville return to what it once was?
BDB: I think it takes people like myself who aren’t driven by money or fame, but are driven by the seed that was planted in them by the people like…I know that the Lefty Frizzells and the Hanks and Johnny Cash, that these guys are all gone, but I would venture to say that there’s babies being born right now, that in 15 years, some of them are going to be Johnny Cash fans because they were such a powerful force that people will keep them alive, and that’s what’s going to always ensure country music of being there no matter whatever else is happening. I’ve only been on the Grand Ole Opry twice, and it’s not what it used to be, but I’d be lyin’ if I said I wouldn’t love to be doing it this Saturday night, but you just gotta wait till somebody asks you to do it. Hopefully, some of those kids out there that are coming up right now though, they see through the plastic stuff, I think, because I have them come up and tell me that. When one of them tells me I’m their favorite one, then you know that they’re not sold with what’s on the radio.
I don’t believe that the general public really…for instance, I have friends who come from over in Arkansas to Nashville to see me sometimes when I play, and they always end up meeting a bunch of my friends who are all songwriters, and they always get blown away by the talent that they hear, that on the radio, they just don’t hear.
TCB: These days people hear ‘Nashville’ and they groan, but there still is good music being played there.
BDB: Oh yeah. I know Nashville’s not got the best rep around the world because it’s such a corporate deal, but the heart and soul is still there, alive and well. I see it every time I’m there. The general public, unless they read a lot or get out a lot, which maybe most of them don’t, I don’t know, don’t realize how they’re programmed. There’s a lot of better music out there as we know, and I think they’d embrace that music we’re talking about more if they were exposed to it. And thanks to people like you, more of them do get exposed to it.
TCB: I’ve been hearing that a lot too, especially from younger people. But because corporate radio has such a stranglehold on the mass delivery of music and it’s an avenue that’s only open to a very chosen few, that’s cut off a lot of music and relegated it into regional pockets. I mean you might have a few independent radio stations in a certain market that’ll play the music from the popular performers from that region. But how do you get the music from these talented performers out to the rest of the country so they can break out and reach people beyond their region? How do performers, for example, in Chapel Hill, get their music heard by people in California, or a band from San Francisco heard by people in NY?
BDB: Well, you’ve got a good point; I play California every now and then. People are hungry for it and it’s like if they hear you, they’ll usually like what they hear.
You know, you’ve got to make so much money to run your household and all, but if you’re ever going to break out of your region, you’ve got to just go out there. And there’s going to be gigs you’re gonna lose on, but you know, you do build up fans. I’ve been lucky, but for me it’s like quittin’ or turning back has never been an option…but I understand the problems these guys face. There’s times that I’ve almost given up because it seems like there’s no avenues, but I tell you, and I’m sure there’s a lot of people like me, that we find hope in people like you. Take Country Back, and there’s others out there…there’s one in Florida called Country Bear. The guy called me about a year ago and told me he thought I had a hit. He said he knew a lot about his listeners and he knew what was hot with them, and I said I appreciated it. He played me a lot. They’ve got an internet and a land station or whatever you call it. So if we didn’t have people like you guys, I don’t know where we’d be.
I don’t know if you guys even could know how important that you are to people like me. I should be calling you and interviewing you [laughter] because I mean you guys are just…I mean where would we be without you guys? Without you guys, I wouldn’t be playin NY the 27th. The internet has helped us tremendously, and of course you’ve still got to have dedicated people like y’all…I’ve certainly felt the presence of you guys, Billy Block in Nashville, the guy in Florida, Twangcast…all these people have treated me like somebody and play my records and have said good things about me. And I feel it out there, it’s helped, definitely helped and I hope all you guys know you’ve made an impact, you’ve definitely made an impact.